Thank you very much for the opportunity to meet with you. We would like to know what is your philosophy about peace and stability within the region.
I would say that the philosophy of this region has to be peace and stability rather then complete burden of our history. This region has had a handicap for many years of not having a vision. Without a vision, this region cannot achieve peace and stability; you can't have a forward vision if you're busy looking in the rear window. Our history of different heritages and origins of our peoples are a matter of fact. But on this basis you cannot build a common policy or a sound development. This is why I see for this region two basic pillars which have to be respected in order to follow this new vision. And this is a) the regional cooperation of all the countries regardless whether they are already NATO of EU members, or potential members or candidates for membership and b) it is the integration of the countries from the region into the European Union. So all must become a part of the European integration process. These are the two basic pillars of this vision. I see economic development as an absolute priority now, especially once the countries have embarked upon the way of democracy.
We have already a period of ten years behind us where these countries are trying and doing their job in setting up democratic institutions. Everybody is aware that democratic institutions cannot be built up over night, yet they also have to recognize that these efforts have so far been successful. We've had four terms of democratic elections in Macedonia, and this has proved to be successful for development. As far as security is concerned, the Partnership for Peace is a regional effort, which excludes Yugoslavia due to the Milosevic regime.
All partner countries are interested in having security which is the basis for creating democratic institutions. It all but ensures economic development and economic growth in the region. In Europe's past, there is the example of the Marshal Plan. We cannot, let's say, we should not try to make a copy of the Marshal Plan because the circumstances are very different from those just after the Second World War. But based upon the achievements of the Marshal Plan, one should bear in mind that this region can have a successful and sound future, if only in the case of sound economic development. Investors, from either the private or public sector, or from OSCD countries from developed market economies should be more courageous and invest in the region. This will bring results. There is much potential here. It is much better to employ young Macedonians and intellectuals; you said yourself you are impressed with the internet pages and with the achievements in this respect, which means there is potential, and these young people should stay here and not move to New Zealand, Australia, the US or Canada in order to get good jobs or connect with capital. It's like the story of Mohammed and the hill. Either the hill moves to Mohamed or Mohamed has to move to the hill. So, either the capital will move here or these young people have to move to it. But its much better to have capital here. Which brings us to the question of the foreign investment. I know that foreign capital, especially private, is like a deer. It is very cautious and every move in the forest gives it a reason to run away. But in the Balkans nowadays we don't have any this forest of danger since this process of democratisation has been completed with Serbia, Yugoslavia and so on.
When do you think this process will be achieved?
You mean this process of democratisation? It is going on now, with the elections in Serbia, with the election of a new Government. We have a completely new Yugoslavia on the scene and, of course, we have to give these people time, they need time for consolidation. Democracy starts with consolidation. You have to get rid of the old structures in the armies, in the police, you know, to teach them to behave differently because they have been always in a role of oppression of their own population. Now they have to start thinking differently, protecting people, to have a completely different role, and this needs some time. That transitional time should not be the reason for foreign capital and investments to wait. We live in the electronic age, the age of globalisation, so we need to be the fast one not the slow one. So we should not make difference between big countries and small countries now in the 21st century, but rather between the fast ones and the slow ones regardless of size. And the same goes for the capital.
Before going on a more international level, can you explain the relations that you have with Greece? The two countries obviously need open borders to continue trading with the rest of the region. What is the current situation and atmosphere between Macedonia and Greece and what has to be done in order to ensure open borders on the long run?
I think you have chosen an excellent example of regional political relations. It is a perfect lesson for students , politicians and intellectuals on how one can, even in the Balkans, transform relations from hostile to friendly. And this is difficult even for Europe, by the way. In Europe all the friendly relations of today have been hostile relations in the past. Take the French-German example, how they transformed themselves from traditionally hostile to a tradition of friendship. You can see this process in the relations between Macedonia and Greece. It started with hostile relations where people in Greece spoke of creating a buffer zone within the territory of Macedonia in order to protect Greece, its integrity and stability and security. This was one extreme, now we have a completely different situation; Greece now is practically the top foreign investor in Macedonia. There is a permanent political dialogue on highest level, a sense of mutual trust, and Greece now promotes Macedonia'a integration into NATO and the EU. So all in all insteaad of being the main obstacle for Macedonia on the international scene, Greece and the open border between Macedonia and Greece has become the gate for Macedonia into the European integration process. The open border is Greece's physical gateway to Europe, and for Macedonia, it is a political gateway. And this is, as I said, an excellent example of how a transformation in the Balkans can occur.
Do you mean that globalization, partially defined by the search of mutual economic trust, is a driving force towards stability and peace on a regional level and perhaps over the world?
Yes, I think it is definitely a positive movement, as you can see in the case of Macedonia and Greece, but it's not only that. It's the fact that Greece has recognised the importance and the existence of Macedonia for its own security and position in the Balkans. So, instead of being the bone in their throat, Macedonia has become the natural ally of Greece by exposing Greece, Greek policy and Greek influence on the Balkans. And Greece has a role to play role in the region as a distinguished member of the European Union as any other European country, member of the European Union does. If Finland or Sweden has an influence in the Balkan region, why shouldn't Greece have its role in South-eastern Europe. But in order to have this role, Greece completely changed its attitude towards its neighbours and particularly towards its first neighbour, its closest neighbour, Macedonia.
You have actively participated in the negotiations of the Stability Pact. When do you expect the realisation of the so-called quick start projects from the Stability Pact to begin?
It's a very good question and I'm very grateful to you that you ask this question now because the Stability Pact is a framework for regional cooperation, regional stability and democratic development, and so far it is the first effort and first time the international community managed to introduce a framework which is based on the crisis prevention rather then crisis management. This is why the Stability Pact deserves our full support, looking from the point of view of the countries from the region. The second very important feature is that the Stability Pact is the first framework whereby the countries from the region are partners in the role of peace and not in the role of adversary. The region is taking an active role, and it participates in the creation of the instruments of the Stability Pact. The region gave a decisive contribution to the Anti-Corruption Initiative, to the struggle against organised crime within the instruments and institutions of the Stability Pact; to the adoption of the Investment Compact, which is again an instrument of the Stability Pact; to the adoption of the Media Charter. So once this is all done by the partner countries, or to say in other words, from the beneficiaries, (because these countries are also beneficiaries of the Stability Pact) I see the greatest possible importance now to implement the quick start projects. If the Stability Pact is going to fail, it will harm its credibility in the region.. People in this region will become sceptical because the quick start project was concentrated on regional links. So, if these regional links through the infrastructure will not be realized then the question is, what are we doing and where are we going? We can't only do things on paper. We have to create something; we have to construct, and this construction process in the region has a greater importance than the construction works itself. It will link borders, peoples, nations by building roads, railways, and grids for electricity. It will connect people and nations, and this why it is very important.
Which project do you believe is going to come out first?
I imagine this highway, which has to be built in direction from Greece from Macedonian (south to north), must be completed because it will play a crucial role. First of all it will complete the highway network North-South through Macedonia and it will provide a good connection to Athens for the 2004 Olympic games. There's 40 km to be completed in order to have this highway open between Macedonia and Greece and this is very important for all Europe. It has nothing to do only with Macedonia and Greece.
Talking about integration into the European Union, you often declare that your acceptance into the EU cannot be achieved only through economic performance, but also through a fundamental change in your social being. Do you believe the Macedonian people will have the means to socially adapt to the society of the European Community?
I think so. Just let me remind you on the
history of the Greek-European relations. Greece
jumped directly into the European integration
process from a terrible military dictatorship.
I would say, this Association and Stabilisation
agreement which we are going to sign on 10
April with the EU is going to speed up the
Macedonian economy, and the Macedonian institutions
as far as the integration process is concerned.
Of course Macedonia will need time. I'm not
an expert at forecasting events or developments
on the international scene, but I dare say
that a decade will be necessary for Macedonia
to adjust itself, which will prepare it for
future EU membership. For a potential candidate
to become a real candidate and a member of
the EU, I don't see a reason why between 2010
and 2015, within these five Macedonia should
not be a full member of the EU. |
The next round for the expansion of NATO is forecasted for 2002. What is Macedonia doing to ensure its future membership within the Alliance, and how will this membership benefit Macedonia?
Well, talking about NATO I would like to give you some brief history of our relations, which is very important for your question. Macedonia did not discover NATO during the Kosovo crisis, because many people have the wrong impression that this link between Macedonia and NATO came from Kosovo. The truth is that Macedonia reached internally, on the internal political level, the first consensus among all the political parties and institutions on the NATO issue. In 1993 a consensus was reached for membership of Macedonia in NATO. And this is why Macedonia became member of the Partnership for Peace earlier than other states in the Balkans, particularly those from former Yugoslavia. This is due to the fact that Macedonia has an incredibly important geo-strategic position in the region. It is in the centre between the north-south and the east-west axis of the peninsula, of the region itself. NATO is aware of that. Everybody is aware of that. Everybody knows that the stability of Macedonia, the prosperity and development of Macedonia has an effect on the whole region. A bleak scenario, a destruction of Macedonia, would mean a disaster of the whole South-Eastern Europe, from Turkey to Greece to Bulgaria, everybody would be involved.
Macedonia as a state proved to be a very faithful ally for NATO in all these years of crisis. During the Bosnian war Macedonia received refugees; there are 10s of thousands of refugees from Bosnia who came to Macedonia and are now integrated citizens of Macedonia. We even have some of them becoming members of the Macedonian Parliament. Macedonia has played a part, all the way from the destruction of Yugoslavia until today, as always playing the role of the eighth ally of the international community. It was involved with United Nations, the European Union, OSCE or NATO in the crisis management process. It offered its moderate but still useful abilities to participate in this process, and it participated in the conflict; the peak of it was the highlight of the Kosovo crisis. Many of the prophets have made a forecast that the Kosovo crisis and the spillover, this is what many people believed in, will have had such a negative effect on Macedonia that it will break down. On the contrary, Macedonia again showed its strength and prevented a terrible crisis of refugees all over Europe and saved Europe from it. Otherwise all these people would have landed in France in Britain, in Germany, in Switzerland and this was definitely proof that NATO can count on Macedonia and Macedonia did count on NATO. If you ask me, Macedonia is a de facto NATO member. I can't recall a similar European example from the past where NATO had troops in a country that wasn't a NATO member. It's a precedent. Macedonia is actually more active in NATO activities then some NATO member states. You can imagine some NATO member states which are completely out of NATO activities but are formally members of NATO. So this is why it would be absurd to continue with the enlargement process of NATO and to forget Macedonia. NATO will have more negative effects from our absence than would Macedonia, because we feel safe and secure even without being a NATO member, even without this Partnership for Peace framework. It would be logical to have Macedonia on-board during the next enlargement round. This is not optimism; I think that we have good cards. Of course I'm aware that it's a political decision, it's a political process of lobbying from Washington to Berlin, from Paris to London, Rome, Brussels, Ankara, Athens. All these cities and their governments play an important role in the lobbying process, but I think for NATO, and for the balance of power in Europe, the next round of NATO should not miss the countries of South-East Europe.
We heard about a new foreign policy law being discussed. How is it supposed to influence your foreign policy?
It will not influence the foreign policy, but you know within these efforts to have a rule of law, which is one of the basic principles in the country, foreign relations also has to be the subject of an appropriate law. Our parliament will pass a law on foreign relations because we have already set up our Constitution, the roles and the position of the Government, of the President or of the Minister of Foreign Affairs with regards to foreign policy. On that basis, we have to prepare a law which will regulate these relations, and will set up some rules and basis for all the decisions and documents which we have to have as Government, as a Ministry, so that people have a stable juridical basis for foreign political activity. So it can only, let's say, enforce the authorities, and this is why we need this law.
Is this prepared as part of the projects to become integrated within the EU or NATO?
No. We will apply for membership regardless. Immediately after the signature of the Stabilisation and Association Agreement, which will be on the 10 April in Luxemburg, I intend to send a letter on behalf of my Government for the application for full membership in the European Union.
Taiwan is actually a key player within the Macedonian economy. What is your evaluation of your relations with Taiwan regarding the projects you are negotiating at the moment, and especially the Bunardzik project?
Well as you said yourself the purpose of this exercise was not to provoke China and Beijing, but rather to try, even through the establishment of the diplomatic relations with Taiwan, to attract more foreign investments in this country. On the other hand one should not neglect or ignore the fact that China, Beijing, is an important member of the Security Council of the United Nations. It is also a one of the first countries to recognize Macedonia's constitutional name (Macedonia). With respect to all this we have to be tactful in our relations. The relations with Beijing should not be neglected on the account of the relations with Taiwan, or the other way around. We would like to try and consolidate our relations with Beijing and Taiwan and to forget about this. The best would be, an optimum would be to follow the way of the states of the EU, which have with both countries relations, with emphasis on the economic cooperation. So Taiwan has developed economic cooperation with Hungary, with the Czech Republic, with many members of the EU. We are ready to continue our relations with Taiwan, and I hope they will also follow this path.
This long-term relationship still has to be figured out between Macedonia and Taiwan.
Yes, but bearing in mind that we would like also to consolidate our relations with Beijing. We don't want to have a suspended situation of relations with the largest nation in the world.
How do you envision the Republic of Macedonia in 2010 and what your role will be in that realisation of Macedonia?
Well, my vision for Macedonia in 2010 is that the young generation of Macedonia, our children and students, the young intellectuals, should concentrate on building this country and becoming the main players in the country rather than candidates for emigration. The tradition of Macedonia has always been emigration towards Australia, Canada and the US. This has to stop. In order to stop it we have to increase the investment activities here, to open perspective for the young people here to use their potential. This for me is the basis on which political parties have to co-operate rather than to fight each other just for the sake of fighting. By opening up these perspectives the young people could count on Macedonia being a distinguished member of the European Union and NATO.
Would you have any questions to ask or any subject that you would like to raise or that we haven't touched upon?
Well, I was just asked about the size of the foreign investments in Macedonia. I don't know whether you would like to discuss it within this context or you can discuss it with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Economy - they are the ones really in charge of that. I don't see reason why the Foreign Minister should talk about it. I would just like to mention one issue within this context that this, you know, salto mortale for Macedonia in the case of foreign investments has been now made with this operation concerning the Telecom. Once the Hungarian company Matav had decided to buy our Telecom and invest 1 billion Deutsch Marks or 366 million euros or Dollars, this is for me the salto mortale, this where we have really now made this definite jump from the darkness to the light. This will now trigger more large-scale investments. Until now all the investments were rather small and not worthwhile to be mentioned as a success, but this is a success, this is a break through, and this will attract foreign banks and investors and the chain reaction will follow.
And the next largest companies to be privatised?
Railroads and Electricity and the ESM (Elektrostopanstvo na Makedonija) ESM, this is the next one. And this is an investment of about 1 billon and this is important for the country. I also imagine that now foreign banks of highest reputation will join because they always said in the past "There is no reason for us to come here and to settle down before the economy does. You need in the field of industry, economy or services some good and distinguished partners then we'll join as banks". So now the time has obviously come, the momentum for the banks to join. And another important thing I would mention is that our efforts to establish free trade zones around us and these bilateral agreements for free trade, these are a very good investment in the future. For all the foreign investors Macedonia was not an attractive place taking into account that it is only a market of two million. But once you become a part of 60 or 80 or 100 million person market through free trade agreements then your situations changes completely. Then you can take advantage of your position, of your geographical position. Otherwise your geographical position is not interesting enough because of the limited size.
How do you expect the outcome of the free trade agreement signed with the Prime Minister of Ukraine?
This is a very good sign. This is a market of 50 million people. It allows us to have other large trading partners in case of any complications with Europe. For example, if the EU has problems with us imposes quotas for our wine, OK, they want to have a restricted import of wine, then we'll export in Ukraine or Turkey or wherever so we'll resolve our problem. Instead of complaining that the EU is restrictive we'll turn our face somewhere else and say "OK I sell it there". That's simple but people have to behave like that rather then to complain or waste their time in endless discussions on how bad people are interfering with our affairs.
There is always a solution…
Yes, exactly and it's good to have an alibi, so instead of looking for someone to blame, you export your products somewhere else and do your job properly. |
V.I.P. INTERVIEWS 
