The
National Unity and Reconciliation Commission was
set up by the national Assembly in '99 with the
purpose of uniting the Rwandan society that has
been torn apart by ethnic clashes. First how would
you define the concept of unity and reconciliation
for a community that has been divided along ethnic
lines even long before the war?
For a community like the Rwandan community that
has been torn by mainly political conflicts and
genocide of course, its important that you talk
about unity and reconciliation, its a relevant issue.
Like immediately after 1994 genocide it was important
that first of all we bring together Rwandans so
that we can talk to them, because we know that it
is a basis for reconciliation and a basis for a
new Rwanda. Maybe I could tell you the background
of this commission so that you can understand the
context we are operating in.
As you said this commission was set up in 1999 but
it was thought of in 1993 during the Arusha peace
talks between the then Rwandan Government and the
Rwanda Patriotic Movement. They thought it would
be an important institution because they realized
that there had been bad governance in this country,
there had been discrimination, divisive politics
and people had been taught that they had different
ethnic groups, Hutu, Tutsi and Twa. The Rwandese
Patriotic Movement were a force of Rwandans who
were forced to be in exile because of the bad politics
in the country. These are the Rwandans who had fled
the country in 1959 to the neighboring countries,
Burundi, Uganda, Congo and other countries. And
because they had tried all the negotiations to come
back to the country and were denied the right to
come back, the liberation was the last resort so
that they could come back to the country and at
the same time to see how they could liberate other
Rwandans from the dictatorship and divisive politics.
The two parties at the 1993 Arusha peace talks saw
unity and reconciliation as pertinent if they were
to talk about any Rwanda.
Of course the underlying factor has been bad leadership.
If you look at the history of Rwanda before the
coming of Belgian colonialists, Rwandans had unity,
there were so many unifying factors, we had a common
culture, same way of life, there were intermarriages,
people had a lot in common. The economic life, the
social life, the religious life and all these were
uniting factors. When the Belgians came, they taught
Rwandans that they were different; they developed
this philosophy of the divide and rule. Of course,
we see that there were so many advantages of having
these unifying factors. After the wave of independence,
of course we had a legacy of these divisions, it
was reinforced by the consecutive regimes, Habyarimana
regime and Kayibanda regime and hatred was taught
to Rwandans, there was discrimination in education,
there was discrimination in the civil service, you
could never get a job if you are maybe a Hutu or
maybe you are a from the North. So Rwandans were
taught they were different, that they can't live
together and the consequence was the 1994 genocide.
In a country like this one, the Commission for unity
and reconciliation is very relevant so that we can
try to unify Rwandans again, promote the unity and
reconciliation that has been eroded from time.
How did the government handle the social disparities
after the conflict?
As you know, we were a country emerging from conflict,
we didn't have a government in place. We had about
2 million Rwandans who had fled the country and
they were living in the neighboring countries like
Congo of course some of them had fled with the Interahamwe
or the militias who attacked Rwanda and they were
causing insecurity in Rwanda. There were no basic
facilities like water, schools, everything had been
destroyed. So the major preoccupation for the government
at that time was first of all, to set a government,
to have a judiciary in place, to have the executive,
the legislature in place.
The other preoccupation was to provide the basic
facilities, we needed to have a programme to build
housing for the people who didn't have where to
stay, the repatriation programme for refugees because
the Government of national unity thought that the
solution to the bad legacy was to have every body
involved in the national reconstruction.
That is why today we call it the government of national
unity as it brings eight political parties together.
Despite the fact that it is RPF that won the war
and stopped the genocide. They didn't take everything,
they wanted to share so they can avoid future conflicts.
The previous governments had excluded Rwandans from
participating in national development and politics,
this time they are saying that it is important that
everybody comes on board, so the eight political
parties that never participated in genocide are
now working in the government of national unity
in the executive, in the parliament and also in
the judiciary.
Of course repatriation was very important, bringing
the millions of Rwandans who were outside, resettling
of the refugees who had just come back, the 1959
refugees, the 1994 refugees and also Rwandans who
had been living in the country. There was this atmosphere
of insecurity and suspicion of each other as all
these people were coming form different backgrounds
for the first time and living in the country. We
had about 400,000 orphans and unaccompanied minors
and most of these were in orphanage centers so there
was need to mobilize the community to foster these
children in their homes.
We also had another problem of so many cases of
traumatized population, you can imagine after genocide
there was a great number of people who were traumatized.
So I would say that these were some of the preoccupations
for the government before they could maybe talk
on reconciliation. What I can say is that, of course,
the economy had been shattered, so we were starting
from scratch, rebuilding infrastructure, setting
up the economy, setting up of the police to restore
law and order.
Of course there was also building confidence within
the Rwandan population, because the government of
Habyarimana planned the genocide so how could the
people trust the government again. They also had
to gain the confidence of the international community,
so there was a lot of diplomacy going on to show
that we are different, we want the law to rule this
country, we want reconciliation and good governance.
We also had a problem of people who left the country
like in 1994 and of course they had left their property
behind, so there was also need to ensure that people
could get their property, to build in them the confidence
so that they can know, "Okay, we have the right
to our property" These were some of the challenges
the government was facing during that time. Of course
after 1994, we had so many dead bodies around, so
every first week of April it is a mourning week
to commemorate the genocide and also to bury the
dead. That is why I would say the commission wasn't
set up immediately, but at the back of their minds
the government was conscious about unity and reconciliation.
That is why even in the setting of the government
they were conscious about this so that every body
from different ethnic groups could be on board.
Again in the repatriation, resettlement process
and fostering of orphans, if you go to a country
Burundi, they have settlements for the Hutus and
the Tutsis, but for us we said, "We know that
what unites Rwandans is greater than what divides
them" So we should have Rwanda for all Rwandans.
Today we have an army that comprises the of former
RPA soldiers and the Ex- FAR soldiers so again the
army thought that there was need for reconciliation
within the army. So despite the fact that they were
fighting with these people because of insecurity,
but when they came back they just received them
and they were incorporated in the National Army.
Today, we have about 30% of the Army comprising
of Ex-FAR including the Minister of Defense today,
the head of the National Social Security Fund who
were former Ex- FAR soldiers. Today in the civil
service, people are being recruited on the basis
of competence. We used to have an ethnically biased
Identity card, which has been abolished which is
a uniting factor.
So when the commission was set up in 1999, what
was its main first challenge?
The main challenge for the commission first of all
was to create the spirit of confidence and to reduce
tension and fear among the people because it was
the first time that Rwandans were living together.
We started a civic education campaign, we thought
that is important that people come together and
have dialogue on their past. We thought that is
was a way of healing and reducing fear.
I remember there was one time we had a civic education
program for women in Kibuye, we just called women
from the prefecture, from associations and women
councils to come together. This activity breaks
the class barrier.
The programme is about 2 months and is called "Ngando."Ngando
is an old cultural activity where people to discuss
problems and give children moral education. It has
been revived and adapted to suit the situation.
Some of the lessons include the history of Rwanda,
cause of the conflict, democratization, national
challenges like poverty, justice and Gacaca and
social welfare. The commission just facilitates
this activity and lets people debate on these issues.
It's a way to fight ignorance but also a way of
challenging Rwandans as they all had a responsibility
in the conflict despite the fact that we blame our
leaders and the colonialists.
However much one is manipulated or ignorant, people
are still responsible for their actions. So we are
trying to inculcate a spirit of responsibility and
tolerance so that all can co-exist. |
In Kibuye,
when we were talking about genocide, there was one
woman who was a survivor and another whose husband
was in jail and they found themselves together.
The husband who was in jail was the person who had
killed the husband of the survivor. The survivor
said "How can you bring us together with killers!
This woman's husband killed my husband and now I
am a widow, I lost everything." And she was
very emotional. And the other lady said "You
are also bad, I'm not the one who killed your husband
but you imprisoned mine and I too have to shoulder
the household responsibility, so why should I be
responsible?"
At the end they all agreed that they were victims
of bad politics, the survivor apologized to the
other lady and they shook hands.
Bringing these people together helps them to open
up, they talk and are very emotional but at the
end they come to reason and agree to focus on real
issues like poverty rather than ethnic divisions.
This is the objective of the civic education program.
We had another training for women and during the
evaluation at the end one woman said she was so
happy because she had slept with a lady whose husband
was the mayor. These courses bring together people
of different classes and ideologies together.
This was big programme for the commission from 1999
till today. Now we are carrying out such programs
at different levels. At the prefecture level, National
level, women, youth and local leaders.
Have you been able to measure the impact of these
programs?
It would be a difficult question but maybe there
are a few indications. We did not carry out a base
line survey before we started but after three years
of "Ngando" there are some indications.
For example in Ruhengeri and Gisenyi in Northern
Rwanda between 1997 and 1998 there was a big security
problem. Infiltrators from Congo were coming and
killing people. The army had a problem because the
population was identifying themselves with the infiltrators,
as they were their relatives. In 2001, after the
sensitization campaign, infiltrators came back into
the country. Since the population was sensitized
they reported them to the Army and Police. There
were cases of mothers reporting their son's because
they knew they would not be killed. The Army would
just get the infiltrators and bring them to the
commission for the re-education programme.
Last year, we had a 6-month programme for infiltrators
who were captured on the battlefield. After the
course they were changed people who went back to
their communities and some joined the Army.
During the course, they formed associations promoting
peace. Recently we supported them, and they went
all over the prefectures promoting peace and reconciliation
and mobilizing those still in the Congo to come
back.
Before students join the university they go through
this program. Most of these students have formed
unity and reconciliation clubs in the universities
and institutes of higher learning. They normally
have debates. They are now expanding the program
voluntarily in Secondary schools to sensitize fellow
youth.
We also have volunteers from the grass root level
to the district level to promote unity and Reconciliation.
We feel this is an indicator as well.
To measure unity and reconciliation, we look at
some big national programs. Like between 2000 and
2001 there were grass root elections from the cell
to the district level. It was the first time Rwandan
were electing their leaders. Initially every leader
was appointed from the top.
As a commission we were worried that they would
vote on the basis of ethnicity. The commission also
has a role of monitoring. People voted on the basis
of integrity. The fact that people can vote rationally
is another indication that people are going beyond
their differences.
Even in the elections of judges for the Gacaca,
they voted people of Integrity.
Overall political will and commitment for the promotion
of Unity and reconciliation of every Rwandan is
also a motivationg factor.
Unity and Reconciliation is certainly a gradual
process which cannot be acheived over night. So
do you think Unity and reconciliation can be fully
implemented before justice is fully supplied? You
just mentioned Gacaca. Justice is something that
has to be achieved before reconciliation…?
You know reconciliation has to be integrated with
other major programs like Justice, poverty reduction
and Education.
Justice is very important in this country because
we have had a culture of impunity and justice did
not do its work. Today, the prisons are full of
genocide perpetrators and maybe there are many more
on the street. I know Gacaca will reaveal everything.
We find that jusice is pertinent to reconciliation.
We see the main purpose of Gacaca is reconciliatory
justice. The Ministry of Justice is looking at how
many cases have been tried and judged. The Commission
of Unity and Reconciliation is saying that it should
be more than the justice we know. It has to take
into account the political, social and reconciliation
contexts. Gacaca was thought about because if about
1,000,000 people were killed, it means about 300,000
participated in genocide. Rwanda's major resource
is human resources, so we can not afford to have
a very big number of prisoners but again there has
to be some basic justice. Gacaca is a form of that,
it is not like the classical justice. There has
been categorisation, the planners were out in the
first category and are tried in the normal courts.
Those who stole property are in the fourth category.
The idea is to soften the punishment but not acquit
everybody because it is a bad precedent. We feel
justice should be geared towards reconciliation
is important.
We have been encouraging prisoners to confess. Initially
it was very difficult because everybody claimed
it was propaganda, and they did not kill. And even
the classical justice has problems,there are few
lawyers with limited training since many of the
lawyers were killed during the genocide, lack of
infrastracture and the civil service is poor so
they are not well paid hence they are not motivated
and they start their own business.
Gacaca is participatory justice as it has been decentralised
and we have about 250,000 judges elected among the
Rwandans. They are not legal experts, but they understand
their context better than anybody and they have
information on what happened. Genocide was carried
out in broad daylight so the neighbours know. At
first everything was left to the victims. The victims
were asked to give evidence and produce witnesses.
But people who were hiding in ceilings and swamps
did not see who was hunting them although the people
who were killing know.
In Gacaca, the commission has a critical role, doing
alot of sensitisation for the victims and the perpetrators.
And now because of this I think there are signs
of hope.
Recently I visited one of the prisons and the prisoners
were asking us to mediate between them and the survivors
so that they can ask for forgiveness and tell them
the truth on what happened.
We are planning to have these programmes very soon
in the prefectures. So that the survivors and perpetrators
can come together and have dialogue. We think it
is a step forward toward reconciliation even if
they don't forgive each other. We are saying that,
'Forgiveness doesn't rule out Justice', but it is
a beginning. Some of the perpetrators are wondering
whether they will be able to go back to their communities
when they are released after the trials.We have
been mobilising teh victims cause tehy have been
saying, "These are killers, don't bring them
back to us."
Every year we bury the dead, some of the survivors
don't know where their dead are. But now the perpetrators
are saying they can give information on where they
put their people. And when you tell the survivors,
they say that would be important as it would be
a healing if they could bury their relatives. This
prompts them to want to meet the perpetrators.
The other critical issue is to ensure that there
is no retraumatisation with the Gacaca process.
We are planning in collaboration with the Ministry
of Health to conduct training for the people involved
in Gacaca.This will be preparing the victims psycologically,
associations dealing with trauma and also journalists
so that they don't traumatise people with their
reporting. They should know that these are sensitive
issues and they should report taking into consideration
the reconciliation perspective.
There are crucial aspects like poverty reduction
programs. When you talk to the common people they
tell you, "There is justice, but we need basic
facilities." How do you talk about reconciliation
to someone who doesn't have shelter or food. Why
don't you provide basic facilities first? Why don't
you create jobs so that you don't have redundant
people. Because if you are working it is easier
to forgive because you are preoccupied. Like now,
the survivors who are well off do not have the same
problems as those who don't have anything. They
say, "Okay, this happened but we have to live
together, atleast I have a job."
I think even creating employment opportunities for
the youth and income generating activities, it could
facilitate reconciliation. They need the means to
pave the future, to send their children to school.
We feel it is important that the International community
support the poverty reduction programs. And of course,
I feel if we could have people, like Rwandans outside
the country investing in the country and creating
job opportunities, this would be a way of helping
in the healing and reconciliation process.
Education is also very important. Today, we have
a program to integrate civic education in the school
curriculum.So that children from an early age are
taught values like peace, tolerance, respect of
rights, reconciliation.
We are also working with other non formal programs
so that we can reach the adults because they are
also important. Especially women because it is very
easy among women to bring reconciliation than men.
Because men have other interests. But women love
their children and they want peace for them.
For example there is a program in Ntarama which
is a genocide site. There are widows of genocide
but there are also women whose husbands are in jail.
So an association called ASOFERRWA had a shelter
program for the women and they have created what
they call a "Peace Village," where they
share everything which brings reconciliation.
Among women and children, reconciliation is more
visible that is why we have taken them as our target
group. We try to support their initiatives, for
example initiatives for children whose fathers died
in the genocide or children whose parents died in
the Congo.
NB : Winne shall not be responsible for
unedited transcriptions |
